How would you describe yourself or your sound?
Luke: When asked to describe Pretend, let’s say in mixed company at a dinner party, I settle on something like: rock and roll, heavy on the improvisational, dynamic, and intuitive/relational side.
Timothy: Always tough to answer, but I’d say unconventionally structured rock with improv sprinkled throughout, with a through line of experimentation cased in densely composed parts.
Joel: I usually describe it as a rock band with a lot of improv, clean tone, and long songs.
Mike: The improvisation and quieter parts have their roots much deeper in jazz than they do rock, I believe.
You’ve often been labeled as a math rock band. Do you think that tag fits?
Luke: When we were writing, this was not a term we were familiar with or used. However, after looking at the Wikipedia page I definitely see where Pretend would be located within the nexus of math rock and emo in relation to bands such as American Football.
Joel: I’m not really sure if it fits. We must have fallen into that category but don’t really understand all the characteristics of the genre, or what makes a rock band a math rock band.
Even if you don’t hear it in your own music, do you mind being called “math rock” or being lumped in with other math rock bands? And what are your thoughts on the name?
Luke: I am neither for nor against the term “math rock.”
Joel: I feel disconnected from math rock or math rock bands enough to not mind, and I feel indifferent about it really. I’m not sure other math rock bands themselves really include us in that genre actually. Either way, it’s nice there is a group of music listeners that may be more inclined to appreciate our music.
The time signature and tempo shifts in a song like “Some How” from Circular Ræsoning makes it hard for the listener to lock into it, at least at the beginning. First of all, where are you coming from as musicians and writers when you make a track like that? What’s the fun you have in avoiding just playing in 4/4?
Luke: This song, as with all the music, came from a totally intuitive state, placing a high emphasis on feeling and mood. We don’t think about time signatures at all! I bet Joel doesn’t know what you’re talking about either, and that’s why he’s a one in a million drummer.
Joel: I don’t think any of us know time signatures outside of 4/4 actually. When people ask me about [time] signatures, I have no idea what they are saying. Then they explain to me what timings we were playing in, and my response is, “Cool!” That being said, I didn’t know “Some How” could be described as mathy. I would have never thought of it that way. While I do understand it’s hard to lock into, it is in reality just loose. I’ve never consciously avoided 4/4, our writing process just doesn’t allow for it really. It’s fun and necessary to play off of everyone else’s exploration, the feeling in the room, the mood and just chasing a moment when we all inevitably do the same thing at the same time.
What’s the result you want to land with the listener? How do want him or her to react to a track like that? Musically, what are you trying to make them feel?
Joel: The goal for me is to express mood and execute the exploration of that in a recording. A relationship between us and how we are processing the part being played, and playing off of each other’s imperfections. I’d like that to translate enough to have the listener disconnect from where they think a song is going, or where it “should” go, and allow them to feel it as we are in the moment of writing. The goosebump feelings when writing a song are sparse, but if we can capture the moment we feel them, maybe the listener can feel them too, in the same way.
The instrumentation in Pretend is outstanding; that’s what gets you tagged as math rock: the tempo shifts and intricate guitar playing and the drumming which is very jazz. Where did that sound come from?
Luke: In my view our biggest aesthetic influences were American Football and Dilute. There are directions from and to that differ greatly, but without those bands I don’t think we would have found whatever we did that ended up being “ours.” Our personal tastes are extremely varied, truly all over the map.
Joel: I’ll never forget hearing Duke Ellington and John Coltrane’s “In a Sentimental Mood” when I was young. I think that is one of my biggest turning points personally as a drummer. Jazz is definitely the underlying influence for me. I don’t know how to play jazz, I just try and fake it. Steve Lamos/American Football and Rob Kellenberger/Colossal were also huge influences.
Has anyone in the band had any formal musical training? Either lessons to play in a classical vein or a degree in music or composition?
Luke: Nothing formal, musically.
Joel: No musical training, degrees, or lessons.
Timothy: Self-taught.
Do you employ any alternate tunings in your songs? If so, why? And what inspired you to do that?
Luke: JD Knotts, of Respira, once wrote down his tunings for me on a napkin before a show and it felt like getting keys to the kingdom. Tim and I eagerly learned every song of theirs we could—in addition, all these American Football songs and other influences were in mysterious tunings of their own. I use lots and lots of nonsensical tunings, for no particular reason other than I like how one sounds over another.
Timothy: The majority of our songs were written in custom alternate tunings. For the most part, Luke and I were in the same tuning, but occasionally we were in different alternate tunings. I was in standard for some of our later work. Alternate tunings can be helpful to springboard the writing process into a new explorative territory, similar to playing a different instrument. Each tuning feels very different and makes it difficult to fall into muscle memory habits of standard tunings. Any knowledge of chord shapes and safe notes must be relearned.
Your guitar tone is gorgeous and CRYSTAL CLEAR. What’s the inspiration or reason behind that? (And are those Teles? What kinds of guitars are being played?)
Luke: I use a Gibson Firebird, but on the early record I was using a thinline Telecaster. The deepest idea I had re: guitars is one should stick to humbuckers and one to single coil pickups, I think it balances things sonically. This isn’t a very intelligent answer, I’m afraid.
Timothy: The aesthetic of a Telecaster was a strong influence during the early years. Its shimmery essence and tendency to produce a softer tone when fingerpicking was ideal to me. I always thought it’d be really cool if a guitar could sound like raindrops, and I suppose I figured a Telecaster was equipped to produce a sound like that. I got a Telecaster early on and played it throughout. Luke balanced out our sound with a ‘72 thinline Telecaster, then later acquired a Firebird.
Every band has to consider commerciality at some point. Your record Tapestry’d Life has no fewer than four songs that are around ten minutes long. It’s good, but challenging music. What drives you to create songs that are THAT long and which go through so many changes?
Luke: [scoffing] Why, every band except us, surely! In truth we never considered commerciality, this is not the focus of Pretend. If it passed the collective editing stage it was deemed a Pretend-worthy work. Tapestry’d Life held many, many years filled with many, many ideas…it’s an extremely dense record.
Timothy: I suppose we figured if a part was worthy of keeping, it was best to play it until it fulfilled its essence. Sometimes that was only a couple rotations, or an undetermined amount of time for what I call “structured improv,” where parts are contained, but generalized and end based on cues between players rather than a set amount of times. Mostly naturally landing on a similar amount of time each time we play it, but can vary depending on where we all intersect interpersonally in that moment.
Joel: Not ever considering commerciality is how songs like that come out.
Mike: I joined the group after working as the engineer on Bones in the Soil, Rust in the Oil, and early on I think I was mistakenly trying to understand the music from the perspective of a producer, rather than a player. It wasn’t until I saw behind the scenes during the writing of Tapestry’d Life that I realized the aspects of Pretend that might alienate some listeners were simply the product of the band making decisions based solely on feeling. I remember suggesting repeatedly to shorten parts over the years by 1-3 minutes, and eventually discovered that those parts not only worked in long-form, but often benefited from being extended even longer…especially live. Time, as it pertains to seconds or minutes, part length/song length or time signatures is never discussed within the band. Nor is commerciality. A desired mood dictates everything.
What do you think a listener gets out of a record like that? What’s the appeal for them?
Joel: Tapestry’d Life is particularly challenging. It may not feel the greatest honestly, but maybe it’s something that sticks with you a little more after you hear it. Completing the challenge itself is appealing, perhaps. It’s dense enough that if you do ever go back to it, you are going to hear things you didn’t hear the first or second listen. I like that aspect of it. Challenging patience and attention span always intrigues me, which I think we did better later in Circular Ræsoning.
Has anyone in the band ever said, “Uh, guys...should we just write a pop song or something? You know, something people can dance to?”
Luke: This may yet happen in some form!
Joel: I definitely have had that conversation with Tim or Mike. Then we realized how hard it is to write a good pop song. If we can’t write a pop song like Prefab Sprout, then it’s not worth trying I guess.
Who do you think your ideal listener is? What are they like? What other kinds of bands do they listen to?
Joel: Other musicians mainly. I’m not sure how much we appeal to anyone who doesn’t play an instrument. Maybe they are just starting to explore music outside of the mainstream. Something they can discover for themselves and kind of take ownership of, and then show their friends.
Mike: I imagine there’s a baseline amount of patience that Pretend listeners have. Maybe that’s obvious.
As a band who plays complex and challenging music, how does that affect what you do live? Do you have to pay more attention to your instruments because the songs are so complicated?
Joel: The songs we chose to play live were probably the less complicated ones with more room for improv. That made us not have to pay attention to our instruments as much, and just try to capture special moments of connection among each other. There were definitely those sweat drenched 12-minute songs I kind of dreaded, and it took a while to learn how to keep energy in the bank for the rest of the show. Usually, it was physically challenging rather than challenging due to complexity.
And playing that kind of music live, do you find you ever have to do anything extra to keep a crowd’s attention, especially in a club situation?
Luke: I am famous for refusing to command an audience live. We were an uncanny presence within the club context I feel. We’re laughably inappropriate sounding from a medium to large stage—we’ve played in many, many situations over the years. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.
Joel: I don’t remember ever successfully keeping someone’s attention who wasn’t there to see us in the first place. We would start playing and clear the room in 30 seconds. All that were left were 10 people who were there for us. We brewed coffee during the shows sometimes, maybe that helped some people stick around.
As a band on small labels, how has the internet allowed you to reach new audiences?
Luke: I have to credit the early BlogSpot and file sharing era for spreading our music far and wide into the internet around 2007-2012, and everyone who has written about us, or generously worked with us since we began has allowed that reach to grow honest and true. I personally really respect the internet and believe it is a very powerful technology to be used with care. The label world seems caught up in the larger friction of how to “have a music industry,” itself connected to lots of other complex aspects of modernity. This side of music never seemed to capture our attention, as a band. We sorta just do our own thing focusing on writing mostly, and everything else is secondary. I am for small, personal labels, slow HTML sites, strewn across the internet. Chat forums and secret societies. It’s a great time for these ways of organizing peer to peer.
Joel: We hit the golden era of music on the internet in my opinion. With Myspace and Purevolume and all that. It was an exciting community. Kids loved clicking around and finding their “secret band,” and connecting with them. A lot of our interest came from people who found the first or second iteration of our band on Myspace early on, and then continued through the years.
Are you still a band? Working on anything new? Live plans?
Luke: Depending on when this book comes out there will be some new updates related to Pretend.
Joel: We will always be a band, just as we will always be friends. The relationship comes first, the expression of that follows. We are working on separate projects right now and don’t have any live plans in the future.
Final question: Who’s your favorite Kinsella?
Luke: I loved Nate’s Birthmark project.
Timothy: Mike, American Football era.
Joel: Tim or Mike in Owls.